Curse

Leslie · Jul 04, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torabo

So... if I use say [Frigid Armor] + [Burning Speed] I'm breaking the balance of the game because I'm removing the 'cost' of one of the skills?

Setting aside the question of whether Perma-SF is over-powered or not (I agree it may FEEL over-powered in CERTAIN AREAS, but then so is 600/55), using OTHER skills to remove/reduce the downside of ANOTHER SKILL isn't game breaking or balance breaking in itself. it not like you're keeping SF up all the time and being able to ignore the loss of life JUST by spamming ONLY SF.

QFT, because maintaining shadow form is not a lot different from 55'ing; in essence the 55 build also ''breaks the balance of the game'' by forcing you to only take 5 damage per hit from prot spirit and filling it up with regen. I don't get how, if SF is broken, 55 isn't? Nor 600, which is practically invincible too. Also it's not like SF is invincibility; touch skills, PBAOE, any signets and such all go through it ( i know we've all been squished by traps and Charged Blackness with [Shock] before) not to mention Twisting Jaws. I used to farm with Shadow Form long before the buff anyway, using [shadow of haste] + [dash] to get in and teleport out of danger, using [Sliver Armor] to make the kills.

I'd honestly prefer it if they just reverted the chaos plains back to how they were and lowered the duration of SF again. All you'd need to do is duo farm A/Me with someone else, right? something along the lines of [Arcane Echo] + [Arcane Mimicry] + [Deadly Paradox] + [Shadow Form] ?

Abedeus · Jul 04, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

QFT, because maintaining shadow form is not a lot different from 55'ing; in essence the 55 build also ''breaks the balance of the game'' by forcing you to only take 5 damage per hit from prot spirit and filling it up with regen. I don't get how, if SF is broken, 55 isn't? Nor 600, which is practically invincible too.

Because if you are 55 and 10 monsters hit you at the same time, you die. If it's hard mode, you will die FOR SURE. Same goes for 600, which can survive 2 times more enemies (spirit bond ~8 monsters, 600 hp means 10 monsters on HM). But 600 was nerfed once. Twice if you count SoA 1/4 second to 1 second.

Oh, and both can be interrupted with an attack skill. And both die if ANY of their skills gets interrupted. Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, Spell Breaker, Shield of Absorption... Either kills ya.

Oh, and degen > 55.

Quote:

I'd honestly prefer it if they just reverted the chaos plains back to how they were and lowered the duration of SF again. All you'd need to do is duo farm A/Me with someone else, right? something along the lines of

And you deal damage how?

Riceboi · Jul 04, 2008, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Give me back my shadowform and just totally nerf chaosplanes so it's impossible to farm UW solo. I want all my A/E farms back.

legacyofkain85 · Jul 04, 2008, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Because if you are 55 and 10 monsters hit you at the same time, you die.

i heard shield of absorbtion and shielding hands are good in a 55 farming build

Abedeus · Jul 04, 2008, 06:24 PM // 18:24

But then you have to give up at one of the skills or e-management. Sure, you can replace Healing Breeze, but then degen > 55 > new 55.

Chthon · Jul 04, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Chthon, you're making a pretty subtle distinction between bypassing the curve vs. flattening it. After some thought, I don't entirely disagree with your reasoning, but at the same time I think the practical end-result is the same. Making the learning curve irrelevant is ultimately the same as flattening it because the players don't need to learn anything to succeed. The fact that you could take a different, harder path to the same success is largely irrelevant in the face of a total lack of incentive to do so.

From the perspective of the player who asks "how can I go stomp on the game's hardest content?" the distinction is irrelevant. From the perspective of the dev who asks "how can I fix my game that's so broken with bears jumping up and down on my endgame content?" the distinction is highly relevant, for exactly the reasons you point out:

Quote:

If we ignore PvE skills and cons, then I'm inclined to agree that GW has a sharper learning curve than most other RPGs (which, incidentally, is why I didn't dispute Stockholm's characterization of Prophecies above). Even assuming, arguendo, that GW's low end is unreasonably difficult, the correct response isn't the introduction of PvE skills and cons - it's to flatten out the difficulty at the lower end and design missions to teach players to play (and more importantly, think about) the game correctly. The introduction of PvE skills and cons actually has the opposite effect of what we want - rather than easing the learning curve at the low end, it has disproportionate effect at the high end, dragging down the entire curve and rendering the game trivial and shallow almost universally.

I think the big lesson to take away here -- and it's not a heartening one -- is that GW is so hard to learn to play well that the devs don't even know how to teach someone. They chose to bypass the curve because they didn't know how to flatten it.

idicious · Jul 04, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Thank you a-net, about time

Hyper Cutter · Jul 04, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonire

Prophecies was a massive hit and it was relatively challenging in comparison to now.

Prophecies was only "challenging" because they were constantly handicapping you (no full parties until Dragon's Lair or max armor until Drok's, henchmen complete idiots, etc)

Stockholm · Jul 04, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

From the perspective of the player who asks "how can I go stomp on the game's hardest content?" the distinction is irrelevant. From the perspective of the Dev who asks "how can I fix my game that's so broken with bears jumping up and down on my endgame content?" the distinction is highly relevant, for exactly the reasons you point out:

I think the big lesson to take away here -- and it's not a heartening one -- is that GW is so hard to learn to play well that the devs don't even know how to teach someone. They chose to bypass the curve because they didn't know how to flatten it.

I would go one step further in saying that, at the time Factions came out the Skill Devs really did not care about the learning curve, they where all preoccupied with PvP and the balance of the game for the sake of Tournaments.
Then when the focus changed over to PvE they never really looked in to it again. They took for granted that you knew how to play allready.
I think that DoA was a wake up call for them, and all of a sudden they had to figure out a way to make up for the lack of skill in the game, hence do we now have the EOTN Blessings.

Dami · Jul 04, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by idicious

Thank you a-net, about time

bah.....so what next we going to nerf...how about rez sig?

idicious · Jul 04, 2008, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dami

bah.....so what next we going to nerf...how about rez sig?

Or teh overpowered awsomeness of mending

Leslie · Jul 04, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

And you deal damage how?

[Ether Nightmare] [Cry of Pain] damage, [Spirit of Failure] for energy

Riceboi · Jul 04, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Alright time to use real life means to crash the ecto price. I've had enough. muhahahahahah

Wait for it...

Abedeus · Jul 04, 2008, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leslie

[Ether Nightmare] [Cry of Pain] damage, [Spirit of Failure] for energy

That's pretty energy extensive. And slow. 4-7 degen + 100 dmg every 15 seconds... Well, it will take like 4 minutes to kill a spawn. I know, dual.. but requires cooperation. Oh and I don't know if it will be even possible, I mean you still need a running skill to get past traps and you have only SoF for energy.

Burst Cancel · Jul 04, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I think the big lesson to take away here -- and it's not a heartening one -- is that GW is so hard to learn to play well that the devs don't even know how to teach someone. They chose to bypass the curve because they didn't know how to flatten it.

I agree.

The fact that GW is an online, party-based game makes the learning problem even more complicated, for several reasons. The most obvious complication is the direct complexity that any sort of party system adds - you don't just have to learn how to play your own character, you have to learn how to play your character in the context of a 4/6/8-man team. Further, this isn't a 'team' in the way Diablo 2 had 'teams' - it isn't just a group of players getting together and all doing more-or-less the same thing (destroying face), but a group of players that each have their own roles.

The less-obvious, indirect complexity is the fact that rate of learning often depends on who you interact with. There are many examples of this. Being 'carried' through a mission (or even the whole game) obviously teaches you nothing. Even more damaging, playing with other bad players may actually mislead you (e.g., frontline learns to bring heavy self-heal because their monks are terrible).

But on the other hand, I'd say the game didn't punish players hard enough for many obvious failures. How is it that players could get away with using Mending or Healing Breeze for so long? Why do we still encounter ridiculous builds like Flare rangers and Hamstorm? In a properly-design mission progression, these sorts of builds would have become untenable early-on.

As a side note, those of you showing open malice against those that hold ectos remind me of poor people with their petty jealousy against the rich. Wishing for ecto price crashes for the explicit reason of hurting the well-off is juvenile and idiotic, and does nothing to help your cause. And no, I'm not a member of the super-rich.

R.Shayne · Jul 04, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Three, if you wish to have a more challenging game then make the game more challenging yourself, (don't use ursan, take only six skills, use only half your attributes) DO NOT ask ANET to alienate their largest customer base to just to make a few elitist have an more enjoyable game.

I think some people missed the bolded part and yes people have been handicapping themselves in pve games for a very long time and just for that fact, to make a more challenging game.

Examples: Mechwarrior 2: 21 Century Combat, Baldur’s Gate I & II, Icewind Dale I & II, and Guild Wars, (PvX wiki had a 6 skill build challenge).

So my suggestion of not using ursan (or whatever way you wish to handicap yourself) is a good argument since it only affects the minority of the players wanting a more challenging game and leaves the target market free to play the game in easy mode. It also created no greater reward then the feeling of accomplishment. I don’t like ursan and I don’t use it, but I do recognize it as the ultimate easy mode and as a way to help with title grinding. Do I get more gold or rare items at the end for not using, nope. Do I get a greater reward for not using it, yes I sure do because I got to play the game my way and had fun doing it.

You do realize that players using Ursan to do elite areas are not the idiots you think they are. The are using Ursan Blessing because it is the quickest way to the end goal. The UW Speedway team ursans are not the idiots and they are not just pressing C + spcae, +1, +2, +3, +4, they have to know what they are doing or the mission will fail. Now ask yourself this question, should we hurt the casual player because a bunch of hard-core players are using a skill to do elite areas quicker? If you say yes, congratulations you have just expressed the same train of thought that is exactly the reason PvE is in the shape it is now due to skill being adjusted only for PvP.

If you really want to balance ursan, create a monster skill in elite areas (UW, FoW, DoA and the 2 faction areas) that removes Ursan Blessing. I will be roflmao at all the Hard-core speed teams that have been abusing the skill just to get to the end goal quicker. Ursan Blessing isn’t the problem the same way Shadow Form wasn’t the problem, the problem has always been people using them as a quick way to get the reward. And don’t put the monster skill in EotN dungeons since that is where ursan was designed to be used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

PvE, like PvP, needs constant maintenance.

This is where Anet has failed BADLY.

If PvE had been maintained, we wouldn't be in a state where there are four or more overpowered builds in PvE at the same time. That's inexcusable.

I have to agree with what is said above. I too feel that ANET really didn't care about PvE and let it slowly deteriorate to the state that it is in now and trying to fix it now is going to be a major undertaking that they may not wish to invest the resources needed into such a project.

I wonder what would have happen if ANET had reviewed monster builds/ henchmen builds after they updated skills. Some henchmen skills that were ok are so bad now that I never take them anymore. Some monsters that were challenging at one time are now not even a concern. There are some elite skills that should not be elite anymore and some skills that should be elite skills (but that is just my opinion).

I also wish areas would be adjusted so people wanted a balance team that including all classes (even mesmers) instead of players just wanting 2 HB Monks, 1 Permasins, 2 R9+ Ursans, and 3 terra tanks or wanting 2 HB Monks and 6 R9+ Ursans.

CE Devilman · Jul 04, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

and ecto are still dropping in price...

I bet I can drop the price more....1 day to payback

ElinoraNeSangre · Jul 04, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

Hope the community is happy with itself though. Cry loud enough and you get what you want. Bunch of babies.

Yup, that's about all there is to it. I also find it interesting that this was nerfed, and Ursan still runs unchecked. The balance line is just a line at this point. :: shrug ::

Yichi · Jul 04, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leslie

QFT, because maintaining shadow form is not a lot different from 55'ing; in essence the 55 build also ''breaks the balance of the game'' by forcing you to only take 5 damage per hit from prot spirit and filling it up with regen. I don't get how, if SF is broken, 55 isn't?

The 55 build is broken due to a game mechanic allowing you to sac your health that low with multiple sup runes in the first place. All the skills work as intended when used in their normal setting at a normal health and under normal circumstances don't amount to a great deal by themselves, but combine them with the ability to sac yourself so you can out regen the damage aka 55hp, then thats where teh build becomes overpowered.

It is this and this reason alone that I have always said that its not a nerf to the skill set of the game, but the game mechanic of allowing multiple hp loss from the same type of sup rune is whats hurting the game. That and remove the -50 icon and you kill the 55 build in those 2 steps.

spin · Jul 04, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Because if you are 55 and 10 monsters hit you at the same time, you die. If it's hard mode, you will die FOR SURE. Same goes for 600, which can survive 2 times more enemies (spirit bond ~8 monsters, 600 hp means 10 monsters on HM). But 600 was nerfed once. Twice if you count SoA 1/4 second to 1 second.

Oh, and both can be interrupted with an attack skill. And both die if ANY of their skills gets interrupted. Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, Spell Breaker, Shield of Absorption... Either kills ya.

Oh, and degen > 55.

So they avoid 10+ pulls, same as a permasin avoids degen/bleeding/stuff that still hurts. The essence is the same, if permasin is so evil, then so is a 55/600.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

But then you have to give up at one of the skills or e-management. Sure, you can replace Healing Breeze, but then degen > 55 > new 55.

You still use Healing Breaze now Mystic Regen is back to normal ? hihi
Degen ain't that bad either to handle with Mystic Regen.